The Messy Reformation
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Listen on:
Episodes
Sunday Mar 08, 2026
Sunday Mar 08, 2026
Shaun Furniss didn't grow up in the church. A Roman Catholic mass enthralled him at age seven, a confirmation class confused him at twelve, and the Heidelberg Catechism converted him in college. Now he's co-pastor at Trinity CRC in Sparta, Michigan—holding a Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy alongside his MDiv—and he's convinced that most churches have quietly abdicated one of their most important responsibilities: the care of souls. This episode is a candid look at what Christian counseling actually is, why the reflex to "refer it out" is often a failure of pastoral nerve, and what it looks like to do it right.
The conversation covers hard ground honestly. Both Jason and Shaun have counseled people through suicide, abuse, and grief—and both have learned the hard way that the biggest mistake pastors make is walking into a crisis ready to solve it. Before any wisdom lands, trust must be built. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. The most powerful diagnostic framework is also the simplest: nearly everyone who comes to a pastor is wrestling with guilt, fear, anger, or loneliness—and the scriptures give us the answers to all four.
The episode closes with one of the most important statements about pastoral ministry you'll hear: when you walk into that counseling room, you are not the true counselor. The Holy Spirit is. He has given us his Word as the means of healing, and the pastor is simply the instrument. "I've never fixed anyone, I've never saved anyone, but by the grace of God, he's allowed me to be a part of what he's doing."
Timestamps:
0:00 — Intro and Shaun's family, Trinity CRC Sparta, co-pastor model
0:43 — How the 50-50 co-pastoring structure works with Pastor CJ DenDulk
2:40 — Shaun's story: did not grow up in the church
3:04 — Dad drops him at a Roman Catholic mass with a quarter
3:37 — Confirmation class, Philippians, and "I'm reading someone else's mail"
4:28 — College and career Bible study leads to conversion
4:51 — Heidelberg Catechism: the Lord drew me to faith
5:38 — Reformed Theological Seminary: Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy
6:23 — Jason's first pastoral care crisis: suicide attempt five months into youth ministry
7:45 — True Christian counseling is discipleship on a one-on-one basis
9:16 — The church's heartbreaking habit: farming out what it should keep in-house
9:54 — When to bring in outside help (abuse, opposite sex)
13:53 — Often what passes for Christian counseling is humanistic counseling with a prayer at the end
16:52 — The seminary culture: one class on pastoral care and one joke — just refer it out
17:31 — Counseling as worldview formation: who shapes how your congregant sees the world?
19:33 — The biggest misconception: thinking you need to instantly give an answer
21:39 — The four root issues: guilt, fear, anger, or loneliness
23:56 — People don't care what you know until they know that you care
26:57 — The ministry of presence: what a hospice chaplain learns
30:07 — The Holy Spirit is the true counselor — you're simply the instrument
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/Intro music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Mar 01, 2026
Sunday Mar 01, 2026
Churches say they want hard conversations. They say they're ready to change. And then the STM arrives. Part 2 of the STM roundtable with Roger Sparks and Harv Roosma moves from the structure of this ministry into the raw material they actually work with: human nature. Forgiven, being sanctified, still human. People talk, Roger says plainly, as long as they sense you're going to agree with them. The real work begins when you don't.
The surface issues vary — declining attendance, unaddressed conflict, gender disagreements, councils stretched thin, vision that's gone fuzzy. But underneath almost all of it is the same thing: a trust deficit. When trust breaks down, everything else follows. And Jason, who has watched more church conflict than most as a stated clerk, names the failure mode he's seen destroy congregations: when councils start deciding what to share and what to control, the congregation already knows. Trust, once lost, is very hard to get back. The antidote isn't a program. It's the thing Roger keeps coming back to — talk to each other instead of about each other. Pray for each other, not just about each other.
Harv talks about the profound satisfaction of preaching on forgiveness, feeling the pushback from people who aren't sure they want to go there, and watching something break open. Roger talks about the honor of being trusted with someone's pain. Both talk about the same miracle: you walk in as strangers and leave as friends. When Dan asks what settled pastors can do to protect their churches, the answers are disarmingly simple — be honest, go talk to people yourself, don't give anyone a stick to hit you with, love your Bible, love your people, practice humility over flash, keep vision sharp, and address things before they fester.
**Timestamps:**- 0:00 — Intro- 1:06 — Harv: trust building before the hard questions- 2:20 — Roger: human nature — people talk as long as they think you'll agree- 2:51 — The goal: not agreement, but understanding- 3:27 — When trust is the core problem- 4:13 — Common issues: communication (Roger)- 5:57 — Harv: declining attendance, gender conflict, leadership gaps, unaddressed issues, vision ambiguity- 8:13 — Jason: communication and trust as the underlying root- 9:11 — How to work through a trust deficit- 10:34 — "Pray for each other, not just about each other"- 11:28 — The joys of STM ministry- 12:40 — Harv: the joy of walking a church through forgiveness- 13:20 — Roger: the honor of being trusted with someone's pain- 14:42 — "You come as strangers, and through the miracle of the gospel, you leave as friends"- 15:36 — What can settled pastors do to protect their churches?- 16:23 — Roger: be honest, go talk to people, love the Bible and love people, humility over flash- 18:31 — Harv: clarify vision, gospel focus, train leaders, address issues- 19:49 — Communication deep dive: council transparency- 22:39 — Jason: when councils control the narrative, trust evaporates- 23:40 — Harv: listening groups and solution thinking- 26:25 — Roger: don't treat STM as a stigma- 27:09 — Harv: we have so much to celebrate; God is doing great things- 28:13 — Jason: if God is calling you to STM, reach out to Roger, Harv, or PCR
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/Intro music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Feb 22, 2026
Sunday Feb 22, 2026
The CRCNA is navigating a pastoral shortage, smaller candidate pools, and congregations that have been through enough upheaval that calling a new pastor straight away isn't always the right first move. This episode introduces the STM — the Specialized Transitional Minister — through two men who have made it their life's work: Roger Sparks and Harv Roosma. They want you to know something upfront: having an STM doesn't mean your church is a problem church.
Roger came to the work through a painful door. After 34 years in Medicine Hat, Rock Valley, and Laverne, he'd watched churches go through messy separations as a synodical deputy — and gone through one himself. Harv arrived differently: a teacher turned pastor who spent 20 years on Vancouver Island before sensing that the churches he served had deeper needs he wasn't equipped to meet. Pastor-Church Relations pointed him toward STM in 2018. He's been doing it ever since.
The structure is practical — a year-long commitment, first six months learning the church, second six months preparing the way for the next pastor. A priority list of 14-15 items gets narrowed to three or four. The training through the Interim Ministry Network is serious: church DNA, change dynamics, appreciative inquiry, moving a congregation from scarcity thinking to abundance thinking. But the phrase that captures the spirit of the whole thing is Harv's: we go in pre-fired. Your time is limited anyway. There's no fear. The job is to uncover what needs to be uncovered and love people well on the way out.
**Timestamps:**- 0:00 — Intro- 1:08 — Roger Sparks: 34 years in Medicine Hat, Rock Valley, and Laverne- 3:00 — What drew Roger to STM: synodical deputy work and a painful church split- 5:19 — Harv Roosma: teacher to pastor, Vancouver Island to the Midwest- 7:41 — What led Harv to STM: sensing needs he didn't have tools to address- 8:02 — Jason: STMs aren't just for "problem churches"- 9:10 — The pastoral shortage and STM demand in the CRC- 12:08 — What a one-year STM commitment looks like- 13:22 — The 6-month model: learning the church, then preparing for the next pastor- 15:10 — The priority list: narrowing 14-15 items to 3-4 per church- 16:54 — When a church closes: walking a congregation through its death- 17:25 — STM training: the Interim Ministry Network- 19:09 — Tools: appreciative inquiry, asset mapping, scarcity to abundance thinking- 19:59 — The skills of the STM: avoiding triangulation, practicing differentiation- 21:37 — Annual conference and peer Zoom groups- 23:50 — The license to ask hard questions: what the STM invitation actually means- 25:44 — "We go in pre-fired"- 26:42 — Conversations that don't stay at surface level- 27:05 — The bittersweet: friendships formed and goodbyes
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/Intro music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Feb 08, 2026
Sunday Feb 08, 2026
This is part two of our team update — and we're getting into some specifics. The big topic: the COD's recommendation for biennial synods, which will come before Synod 2026. Willy serves on the Council of Delegates and voted against the recommendation, and he explains why.
The proposal came from a task force looking to cut costs. Their solution? Hold synod every other year instead of annually. But as Willy lays out, this isn't just a budget issue — it's an ecclesiology issue. Synod has its authority because synod is the church. It's not something we get to skip when money's tight. And here's the kicker: under this plan, COD would meet six times in two years while synod meets only once. That should concern all of us.
Coming out of the battles over human sexuality, departures, and division, this is the wrong time to pull back from gathering. We need more connection, not less. And as Willy points out, it's ironic that the denomination just ran a whole initiative called Gather — and now wants to gather less as a synodical body.
On the encouraging side, Lora Copley has been hired as interim editor of the Banner — and that gives us real hope. Herb Scheur's recent article was exactly the kind of accessible, Reformed content the Banner should be putting out. If you stopped reading the Banner, now's the time to come back. And if God's tapping you on the shoulder to write, submit something.
We close with a call to serve — on COD, committees, boards, wherever God is leading. The priesthood of all believers isn't just a doctrine we confess; it's how renewal actually happens.
Timestamps:- 0:00 — Intro- 2:11 — The biennial synod recommendation explained- 4:33 — "Synod has its authority because synod is the church"- 5:14 — Why Willy voted against it: COD meets 6 times, Synod just once- 7:02 — "A recommendation for biennial synods coming out of a war like we've had is foolish"- 9:30 — Churches feel disconnected from Grand Rapids- 11:10 — Biennial synods would undo efforts toward unity and vision- 13:00 — You need a vision before you write a budget- 16:29 — The denomination needs to cut bureaucracy- 18:16 — Lora Copley hired as interim Banner editor- 20:49 — Herb Scheur's article and the call to support the Banner- 24:47 — Call to serve: COD, committees, boards- 28:47 — Renewal of ecclesiology and the priesthood of believers- 33:22 — Final words: pray for the church, act boldly from a place of victory
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Feb 01, 2026
Sunday Feb 01, 2026
It's January, which means it's time for our annual team conversation — just Jason, Willy, and Dan talking about where we are, where the CRC is, and where we think things need to go. After life updates (Dan's upcoming sabbatical, Willy's new pastor in Pease, Jason's transition into school ministry), we dive into an honest assessment of the denomination's current state. Willy frames it well: the CRC has spent the last few years establishing what we're against, but now we're struggling to articulate what we actually stand for. That's the opposite of how our confessions work — they lead with affirmations, then denials. We've done it backwards.
The result? An unsettling quietness across the denomination. People are asking "now what?" and nobody has a clear answer. We talk about the temptation to start another fight just to rally the troops — and why that's exactly the wrong move. This is the rebuilding phase. And rebuilding starts with identity.
Timestamps: - 0:00 — Intro - 2:47 — Dan's update: sabbatical, candidacy gathering, Quorum Deo Conference- 4:46 — Willy's update: new pastor at Pease, COD work, biennial synods, RCA dialogue committee - 7:13 — Jason's update: school ministry, teaching systematic theology, grieving Greg Zonnefeld - 10:03 — The state of the CRC post-Synod 2025- 11:04 — "We've established what we're against — now what do we stand for?" - 14:09 — The Eugene Peterson story: what happens after you "win" - 17:35 — Classis renewal and organizational challenges- 21:01 — The CRC's lack of vision - 22:07 — Local church leadership vs. looking to denominational HQ - 24:27 — How classes can share gifts and work together - 31:24 — "What we're doing isn't working"
Join and support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/ Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
Intro music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Jan 25, 2026
Sunday Jan 25, 2026
Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Intro Music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Jan 18, 2026
Sunday Jan 18, 2026
Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Intro Music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Dec 21, 2025
Sunday Dec 21, 2025
Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Intro Music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Dec 14, 2025
Sunday Dec 14, 2025
Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Intro Music by Matt Krotzer
Sunday Dec 07, 2025
Sunday Dec 07, 2025
Join and Support us on Substack: https://themessyreformation.com/
Check out the Abide Project: https://www.abideproject.org
We love the Christian Reformed Church; we want to see reformation in our denomination; and we recognize that reformation is typically messy. So, we’re having conversations with pastors throughout the CRC about what reformation might look like.
Intro Music by Matt Krotzer